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Combat in MMORPGs is the cornerstone of the game. The reason why is that combat touches every other system in the game. As I say on my Twitch show, if you have a game with 15 amazing systems (Nodes, Artisan System, Naval Combat, Social Organization, Wars (Nodes and Guild), Sieges (Node and Castle) Religions and you use Tab Target Combat, people will forgive the Tab Combat. However, if you have those same 15 amazing systems, and you are trying to use Action Combat, and your action combat is anything but exquisite, then all you have is a crappy action combat game.
Intrepid has been iterating on their Hybrid combat system for the past three years, since they first introduced APOC in 2018. I’m getting a little worried that it’s three-years later and they still haven’t made a final decision on the basic attack. The basic attack mechanics laid the foundation for the entire system, and until the decision for how basic attacks is going to work is resolved, they can’t really move forward with any other decisions.
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Time Stamps
00:00 – Video Start
00:51 – Player Concerns about Combat in Ashes
01:17 – Forced Forward Animation
01:39 – Paradox Feedback on Combat
02:18 – Intrepid Split Body Animation Footage
02:50 – Jahlon’s Big Concern on Combat
04:10 – Jahlon’s Recommendations
04:24 – Intrepid Should Abandon Hybrid Combat
05:04 – Adopt a good Tab Enhanced System
05:25 – Get the Major Core System (Nodes) in place
06:03 – Iterate combat again at the end (if there is time)
07:05 – Conclusion
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First
I think a tab system is preferable anyways. There's no reason unique abilities couldn't have satisfying skillshots, cones, splash damage, etc, overlaying a more traditional tab targeting system.
I would be totaly happy with tab targeting combat if the game had clases that were really good.The bigest concer is to make the world work the node system,housing and the naval system etc. mathe the core work first and add other stuff in the later expnasions.
I agree with staying with a tab targeting combat system and concentrate more in the other systems, specifically the node and caravan.
Nailed it
tab is preferable, totally agree
Been saying the same thing about weapon swing speed. The swing speed for most of the attacks are way to fast and or flashy. It needs to be slowed down a bit.
And honestly I agree. I'd rather have a great game with a decent tab targeting system than a scuffed hybrid action combat system. It will disappoint a fair chunk of the fanbase, but it will free up time for them to focus on other parts of the combat system to make it a decent tab targeting system.
Great video man.
Agreed with the "floaty" statements. Personally I dislike BDO combat very much, not only because I suck and the UI is confusing but also feels floaty to me. Weightless. But if I had to, I can describe why. So just saying "floaty" or "weightless" doesn't give much to the devs.
The weapon swing is somewhat (or heavily?) tied to attack speed. And the movement animation of the body is also tied to speed. IMO AoC as a whole needs to be taken down a notch when it comes to speed, and "spread" the animations more. By spread I mean, make them take longer times to finish (but without restricting your movement or attacks) and/or make them bigger. For example, running also feels weird. Same happens for mounts. I feel the weight is given by the slower speeds at bigger sizes. This is why we see Godzilla and King Kong fighting at really slow speeds. In fact, I throw that example because I do not know the physics involved and my doubt was, if we can move "as fast" as we can in real life, wouldn't a giant monkey also be capable of being fast considering he has the muscle and strength to move the body itself in the first place? But I digress. Point is, no matter what the "correct" answer is, if we saw those monsters fly and go super fast, it wouldn't be perceived as "real". In AoC, I feel the movement can be the same speed but instead of 2 steps of a jog, it can be 1 step of the character lifting their legs a bit more, doing a bigger gap, and then when one foot is on the floor, "rest" the body on it, to give that .5 seconds of grounding.
That said, to be fair to IS and the devs, the last iteration literally looks like WoW movement or swtor, which personally to me, is completely fine. This is where IS has to know where to draw the line that feedback given is useful, or it turns into being nitpicky. And it seems they forget this is a game, and one that is not based "in real life". It's fantasy.
Here's a part of a comment I made on Reddit on the AoC sub:
"1- I agree with you. I understand the part of being "for the majority" or "for everyone" with combat and trying to have both so whether you like tab or action combat, you can play it. But personally, unless you make things AROUND action combat to make it as tight and good as possible, to me is a waste. Like everyone loved TERA back in the day and loves BDO. I liked TERA slightly better, I really dislike BDO. But objectively, it has to be the best action combat in the market. That said, in that specific part alone, is no different than playing CSGO or LoL. The better the server and the closer you are (and have less ping), the better it will be. Assuming hitboxes are made perfectly and never bug (it never happens in any game as far as I know), then player skill and server delay come into play (remember, this is assuming the utmost ideal situation for hitboxes, spells thrown, etc) – people will have an advantage or disadvantage. There's an inherent problem in there that no one can solve at least not with our current technology 😛 So for me, just go with a good fluid tab targetting. A bunch of people will complain or say they like action better but if we look at the market today, outside BDO which again objectively must be the best and "only right" A.C in the market, everyone plays a different mmo with different systems and 2 of the ones that do better, are almost or more 10 years old, have tab systems (wow and ffxiv). A lot of people played Lineage 2 which was basically click simulator. And it was fantastic. Of course you can't have that today, but a basic well done and polished tab system is completely fine. WoW, FFXIV, Swtor all have it. Wildstar had it, although it was sort of "hybrid" with cones and such, same for gw2 and maybe ESO.
If the rest of the game is good, with time, no one will care. Not having action combat turns from a "lacking feature" or something "bad" into a personal pet peeve. Example: after playing a while through ARR in FFXIV I know now exactly what bugs me about the 2.5GCD. And it's a minor thing that I can deal with. I wish I didn't have it, considering I'm used to wow/swtor type of combat, but it's still minor compared to the rest."
PS: Suggestion to put some background music at low volume to acompany your voice. It'll make the videos a bit more upbeat and less serious 😛
Absolutely agree. How are you going to keep building ur game when you still dont have the fundamental functions of the system in place (node system).
Also, i do agree that the game looks too complicated for a casual player to play and also, invite a bigger audience of players. Its very hard not to say that the game looks like a niche mmorpg.
I was always afraid that ashes is too ambitious as a project and the confidence Steven has for it creates even greater expectations and demands. I'm still not sold on the idea that AoC will manage to become what's its being advertised as.
Keep it Tab target! Like Archeage and AC Valhalla, it's 3rd person with NO crosshair in the middle
Soon as you put a crosshair in the middle, then you lose the combat
I agree, the living world is essential. It is a gigantic project. Good luck adding in the cohesive quests. I came for the religions.
As usual, on point. Just abandon action and give us a good tab targeting system.
The problem is that tab target systems are super inferior and outdated. At this point its like going back to using a single joystick N64 controller after technology has improved and made a dual-joystick controller the new standard. Action Combat is becoming more and more popular as its waay more immersive and feels better in the player's hands. BDO is a great example of this. Going to tab target is taking a step back when this is supposed to be the upcoming next-gen MMO for people to use for many years to come.. should not use ANY old tech that's been replaced already with something better…
Of all the things for Intrepid to cut corners on, the combat should not be an option. making it tab target is the easy way out but not the correct choice for a next-gen mmo
that you have to make this video says a lot about where they are at. they should have made that decision way earlier. it seems they are having major problems at implementing that hybrid system in a great way. and a great way is the only way it makes sense. otherwise, if they are not able to hit it out of the park, they should abondon this concept. so i agree. they should go with tab target even if it may not sound sexy…
My thoughts on why rooted motion felt off – I think that feedback that led to the development of rooted motion for melee combat was given for different genre of games, when people tested apoc they've been playing Battle Royal, not MMORPG which has a very different flow of battle, in BR's, every fight should be quick, deadly and most importantly in BR's you only have the weapon that you've found, that's why it's so important for weapon attacks to feel impactful, they are basically the only thing in this game that does damage. Whereas in most MMORPG's and I think in Ashes too, the majority of your dps comes from your abilities and not from melee weapon attacks, in MMORPG's you need to have a feeling of "impact" on your skills not your weapon of choice, the weapon should be something supplementary and that's why it needs to be less impactful and more controllable, so while you hit a target you can position yourself nicely to get that impactful big CD off + if you have both your skills and your weapon attacks root you, it becomes really hard to do mechanics in boss fights, cause 70 to 80% of the time you just can't move.
Not gonna lie, I would be disappointed if they dropped the hybrid system with action combat. But I would still give ashes a fair try if they decided to go with tab targeting.
Intrepid just needs to drop the action combat. The barely 2 dozen ADHD 12 year olds on crack that keep pushing it just need to go back to Fortnight and Rocket League for their Adrenalin fix. An enhanced Tab system, similar to GW2 or ArcheAge would be just fine.
whats an mmo pathfinder
Action combat is NO for me , tab target is the way for a true mmorpg
WoW style combat is the way to go. And on a side note I think the characters should have 15-20 abilities total. And should have 3 super powerful abilities on a 6-8 min cd. And around 5 semi powerful abilities on a 2-4 min cd. The reason being in WoW talent tree system you always had to pick a few cool abilities out of a bunch which was sad. This might be a way to solve that problem without making classes broken. Classes will be similar to WoW’s . But be a lot more fun having more cool skills. WoW has the most skill based and fun combat of any fantasy mmo. Might as well copy a lot of it.
With background that not knowing how development of a game like this. I would say you nail it with this video on how they should proceed. It feels it is abit "stuck" at the moment and as you said in the video path of direction is needed as the feedback is still vague. Combat feels light doesnt say so much for example. I dont know how much you can add change later on in the process when it comes to combat but they do need to tackle so many things when it comes to the world. I just wonder if they for example say "well we will really try to nail this hybrid combat so we will spend one more year on it" what would happen? They surely have the money to do it. Majority of the community wants this game to be as good as Intrepid wants it to be, so I do think patience is there. Just brainstorming abit. Keep it up with this good videos