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The nice thing about Ashes of Creation is that it is still in Early Development, so now is the time to bring up ideas and suggestions to the developer to see what they can put into the game. One of the things Intrepid Studios talked about back in 2017 was Parkour, and the ability to scale walls as was concepted in the Art of War video. Five years later people are wondering what Parkour features will remain, if any. Intrepid has talked about the difficulties in implementing parkour including what it does to landscape design Still, some people are dead set on parkour staying in the game.
What do you think? Should all classes have it? Just Rogues and Rangers? Fighters? Should anyone be able to use a grappling hook? Leave some comments below!
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Parkour seems cool but…. Why would everyone be able to do it? Can everyone find hidden treasure? It should be subclass perk which makes sense and still accessible to anyone who subs ranger (grapple) or rogue (parkour) however once you were on top of the structure they could send down a rope for the other classes to climb? That way its not so insular and it benefits everyone.
It feels similar to blink. Great ability but not everyone can do it only mages or those who sub mage. Should play the same with parkour.
If Intrepid can make parkour work without devoting a absolute ton of development time I'm all for it otherwise nah, keep it very basic.
Depends on what “parkour” refers to. If it’s just scampering up a little ledge then yes. However if we’re talking big leaps and advanced climbing then no.
Perhaps let rogues and rangers climb and can then attach a rope to the top of something and then let the rope down for other classes to climb. That way, it becomes important for them to do the initial climb but allows other classes to follow. In defense, maybe the ropes can be removed too to either stop future climbs or to hide the fact that it was climbed and reclaim the hook/rope.
you can fix alot of the problems you set by adding a stamina bar when parkouring. You can make it dex tied, this way classes that are more dex heavy can do it longer but it wont give them the advantage of only being the ones to have it. This would also stop them from using to climb tall stuff like towers/walls. I imagine at least, I for one would prefer they skip this one, and release faster :))
Now parkour is acrobatics and climbing is climbing. I think that you should have climbing for everyone (trees, cliffs, walls, etc) and parkour something you could spec in to. Maybe rogues and rangers get a bonus ability point from the get go that is locked in parkour. That way everybody who specs into it can parkour but rangers and rogues will have an edge over everyone else. Maybe tie the speed of climbing to the dexterity stat. Everybody can climb a tree, not everybody can jump form tree to tree.
And i don't think that you will need parkour to traverse the world maybe a shortcut every once in a while. Or in a dungeon do some parkour to be able to run around and open a door for the rest of the group, things like that.
If they implement parkour, I'd have special hook points that the devs specifically add to avoid devs having to worry about complex map design.
see i dont want full agile acrobatic parkour for everyone like a fat full heavy armor / weapon … BUT it would be cool if we were not hindered and could do SOME stuff like climb a tree albeit slower or with more stamina cost or something… or maybe requiring tools such as hook /rope …
imagine it like this :
can anyone harness fire? YES absolutely.
but can they harness it as easy & fast as a mage ?? NO OFC NOT! they need lighters, torch, matches….
i feel like every class should have basic movement like jumping (rolling on landing), mantling, sprinting, rolling, etc. but rogue should be a lot faster at it and maybe have some extra movement options like being able to perch ontop of a wall like mountain climbers do with their ice axe's. obviously if rolling iframes is in the game rogue roll stays the same as normal roll. IF they had enough resources, i would like to have rogues/rangers have their wall climbing abilities and extensive parkour movement capabilities but it realistically is gonna take too much time. i also feel like you should be able to learn these moves as another class if u choose rogue/ranger as an archtype.
this might be my assassins creed speaking to me but I also feel like rogues should have a special action assassinate ability where you have to jump off something and the longer you fall the more dmg u do to ur opponent if u hit them
Initial thoughts: everyone should be able to climb and move around. However, depending on your class and stats, you do so slower or with bigger penalties.
A very agile rogue should be fast, climb twice in a row perhaps. A giant strong warrior can climb, but it's slow, even if he could climb for ages, is not a route he's meant to take.
A mage can tp/disappear and reappear, but they can't do this instantly all the time every 2 seconds. It wastes their energy to do so and should be available as a escape maneuver only (Yenneffer in The Witcher show does this, she escapes or moves through portals, but she isn't throwing portals around every second).
All that said, as you've pointed out, parkour and climbing and such is basically an endless sources of problems. From a design perspective, work for the devs, the amount of bugs, exploits from players and in the end if there's a meta, all diversification/personal input goes out the window.
In the example of sieges, if you had a rogue climb a part of the wall and open the gates, it'll be too OP and become the meta. And then you might say something like "well, if mages are high level enough, they have a protective spell that puts an energy wall around that serves as a mean of "trigger" to know of a breach/remove stealth from the rogue. In paper sounds like that'd be the balance, but effectively in the end you have a 1 and 0. Either Rogue wins, or Rogue useless.
We lived long enough without parkour in any mmo; just make it have a small simple climbing, that's it.
Edit: On the note that climbing is only "terrain traverse" and not related to parkour, what if you make it so Rangers have some higher level of climbing to certain areas (get on top to shoot arrows, which makes sense) and then Rogues, but a certain sub-class of rogue can parkour? They won't do insane damage or anything, maybe perhaps take only 1 enemy and then done. A sub-class literally meant for stealth, info and the likes. I know this ends up back to the "why should Rogues only have it?" question – from my POV I would say yes, only Rogues have it. Yes, it would be cool if I had it BUT I don't like playing Rogues, and I don't care about stealth. I want to go into battle and fight. So at that point, I am not the target for the parkour feature. If I were, I would have to go the rogue sub-class route. Besides this, the rest of classes should have some UTILITARIAN unique feature (something that doesn't truly mess with the balancing while you're fighting or at least doesn't break it horribly) so each class has its own identity and is adapted to different type of playstyles.
From your comment on "swtor's cubes", I personally liked "exploring the terrain" and trying to get to those, however, I completely agree with you that the shitty part was not whether you liked the puzzle or not, it was the fact that you needed it for extra stats, instead of cosmetics, a toy or something unrelated to the core gameplay. If AoC can do this, then I'd make it so for example, a force field, can only be understood and broken by a mage and no one else. In swtor you had this option of "allow same class stories" so a jedi knight could go with a sage and help them out in phased areas. That was super cool, however, just like cubes, if you need a mage as a rogue or fighter to move on with your game, that's shit design. But what if you needed a mage to obtain some scroll for appearance, or armor design? Something that is completely optional and does not change the gameplay in any way.
Love your analysis skills, great content man. Keep it up!
I like the idea of parkour for all classes, but each with it's own proficiency. Such as:
Rogue and Ranger – 10 (max)
Fighter – 5
Arcane archetypes – 3
Tank – 1
Rogue and Ranger as secondary archetypes – adds 2 to the primary archetype parkour level
Those levels determines the speed, stamina, height, direction flexibility, range, the ability to see parkour spots, even fall damage…
To prevent it we can use fences or magic on the walls and even the surface could interfere
Back to the caravan example, everyone should be able to climb the tree, but the tank would take 10s (if there's enough "parkour stamina") while the rogue would take 2s. The mage would take 7s climbing but could use some skill to levitate or blink to the top. I'm extrapolating to be easier to understand.
That being said, I know it's really hard to implement like this but I think it's the fairest way to have meaningful parkour.
If Ashes is going to have parkour, I think it needs to be in the game since launch.
I think unique movement/environmental abilities would be amazing in general. I think giving each class their own suite of player vs. terrain abilities is exactly how you innovate on the classic MMO formula. However I don't think ashes is the right time and game to make that innovation. Focus on all the other elements MMO players expect for now.
Parkour's exclusivity should be determined by how difficult it is to move around without it. If you end up in a BDO situation without it, then everyone needs it. Rogues/Rangers can have knockback or fall damage resist if they don't have an exclusive movement option.
If ranger/rogue will get parkour, I want a mage to be able to blink through walls, or at least grates. Tank/ Fighter should get brute force – open doors etc, Summoner needs an infiltrator summon, Cleric should get a "Hopeful Prayer" with the chance to open stuff, and Bard… well Bard can get a sad tune to play when waiting for others to do their cool stuff 😀
Generally I'm against whole parkour thing. I don't like the idea of traversing/climbing everything. It's fun in single player, but it's easier to implement there.
I think it's cool but unnecessary feature, that would require way more resources to implement than it's worth. Might as well just give the ladder to the folks in siege building to scale the walls in pvp and that's it, though if you let people scale walls in pvp only you can be sure to get mad responses why I cant jump over the hedge or why can't I use the ladder in dungeon. And leave the world inaccessible for sure, if you let people just parkour wherever they want, it becomes nearly as bad as flying for everyone.
If they have to do it, maybe base access to it on stats? Over certain endurance/agility you can use this perk, this might prevent silly builds like bulky dwarf, orc being super sneaky on the grapling hook… Could go further with this, like got enough intel you can use scrolls/books etc.
I agree on jumping puzzles, I enjoy them now and again, but not when they are mandatory to progress.
Interesting topic. First I will say that I love jumping puzzles and I do think there should be rewards. One of the core ideas behind Ashes of Creation is that you won't be able to have everything or do everything. So I guess if you're not good at jumping puzzles, too bad you miss out on those rewards just like I'd similarly miss out on rewards for something I'm not good at or have no interest in.
As for the concept of parkour in general, I'm no dev and I understand how much more complicated parkour would make the development for other aspects of the game, so therefor I could take it or leave it. I'd be fine with everyone being able to do it at least to some degree, so there isn't a meta. And I'm fine with it being only on special hookpoints because it would be way more of a nightmare to design the world around everything being climbable rather than just not adding hook points to certain buildings. I'm using the term "hook point" in a mechanical sense ie. your character can grab that spot. But speaking of hooks, I wouldn't mind grappling hooks in the literal sense either. Then you don't have to argue over what classes should be able to climb or not, and it adds another craftable item which can break and thus can eventually be worn out if the attackers fail to get over the walls with enough attempts.
Thankyou for covering this topic, I feel quite passionate and opinionated on it! I love that you've done the Steven quote research so that it's presented in one place.
My opinions. Parkour should be present at release. It should be for all Archetypes, but dexterity, armor type and total carried item encumberance should effect the climbing speed (this would naturally favor Rogues and Rangers carrying nothing and wearing nothing, except climbing buff gear). The fastest climbing character build possible should still make it nearly suicidal climbing a wall during a siege if spotted and attacked. Different surfaces offer different climbing speeds, including speed zero.
Climbing a siege ladder wearing heavy armor should be slow, even if the character is super strong. Strength should (only) partially compensate for armor type and item encumberance.
If you want to climb quicker then you can't take much gear – this gives massive risk vs. reward considerations.
Opening a castle gate or drawbridge shouldn't be a quick process. More like turning a heavy wheel so that defenders can see what is happening and react.
Some actions and/or some locations should negate Rogue stealth (drifting off topic now).
Inability to fight back whilst climbing, risk of falling with increased fall damage if you are hit.
I'm happy for spells to facilitate parkour and climbing or bypass parts of it. Just have cooldowns on those abilities to keep them from exceeding the rate of ascent or distance covered by an equivalent level Rogue.
I appreciate that Intrepid would now need to assess the entire world and associate a max. climb speed with every vertical or inclined surface, but I believe it would add a huge additional depth to the game. I guess there would be a "stick like glue" key that you would have to either hold down or toggle on/off to climb whilst using directional keys?
Your video is so good I'm going to watch it again right now!
I think it would be interesting to have a bit less dps for the parkour ability and since that maybe disadvantagous outside pvp how about giving them the ability to get to chest or unlock chests in a dugeon etc. So they would still have utility fo dungeons or exploring with a party.
I don't think it's a good idea to limit one character's standard mobility over another based on anything. I'm not sure it'll go over well, however with that said, I think Dungeons and Dragons online did something similar with Tumbling, right? And it seemed to work pretty well and helped distinguish classes.
I think they should scrap parkour. Not worth the dev time. But if they are adamant to include it, then it should be for all classes. All the classes are athletic beasts who run around and fight dragons even if they are wizards. So of course, they all should be able parkour. Seems like something ADVENTURERS in a fantasy realm would be good at.
Everyone should be able to, "climb." Ladders, and edges like in the demo. Climb onto something and pull themselves up.
Rogue/Ranger should only be aloud to, "parkour." Jump up from a ledge to another. Go up trees.
The more they put points into parkour the more times they can jump up, hang on longer…
I really thing the ability should be based on armor type and class. Magic users should have to forgo the skill. And the skill should only be available to those wearing Medium armor. I don't see a character decked out in Plate armor having the skill either.
A good way to Exploiters problem
Interesting topic.
Parkour and climbing should probably be a thing for everyone, probably tied to some kind of mobility skill tree. Together with gliding mounts it can create very interesting situations in pvp. Maybe give some classes/mounts/items/skills better mobility (grappling hooks, gecko mounts, sticky boots/gloves, climb as a spider or levitation spells).
As someone also said in the video they can probably define materials that are impossible to climb or even make surfaces temporarily "slippery", it could be an optional enchantment for castle walls that attackers can somehow disable.
Also, if they don't want a certain tower/cliff to be climbed they can just add flying monsters patrolling around it… Or some very hungry lizards/spiders attached to the outside wall waiting for a free McAdventurer, you probably can't defend yourself very well while climbing. If you really want to climb that tower wall someone with a dragon mount might be able to clean a path for you… so many options there.
Well. It doesn't make sense for a tank in full plate to be able to climb a wall and jump rooftops. So I'm okay with it being restricted to who thematically it makes sense
I would say if they went down this Parkour road – risk vs reward may also be something needed to be considered. One who parkours usually is VERY familiar with the environment they are in. When the environment is new – a bit of experimentation is involved. Much more misses, losing grip, misjudgements, climbing only to find you end up at a place that there is no way to get higher and must reverse and seek a different path etc, etc, etc. If fall, a chance, damage taken – perhaps. With all the other environment issues involved, I would preferr this mechanic is dropped, or minimally postponed to a later date that most, if not all issues, can be addressed. Not need a WEAK mechanic at launch IMO.
when you say parkour I think of the agility skill from RuneScape praps hiding unique shortcuts based on some sort of Parkour base level system and for sieges have some sort of cost to using the parkour elements to access the keep so perhaps you can only get one two three Rogues in there total and have some sort of obj asoated with it to lend aid
I think it would be wise if parkour would be a skill attached to your agility stat. The more agility you have the more you can develop your parkour skill. Every class would be able to get it if they invest enough into agility, albeit at lower levels for some. And for some classes that would hamper their specialized builds. Meaning that rangers and and rogues would have the greatest ability to parkour and others able to catch up by tweaking their builds or get some minimal parkour ability from natural agility growth.
To compensate, strength stat would let you get skills to carry more items or knock down your opponents easier of even bash through walls in some scripted maps (because I don't think MMORPG's should have destructible environment on main map)
Intellect would give you mana regeneration skill or limited levitation or better map generation skill (cartography)
Vitality would unlock health regeneration skill or immunity to elements or faster recovery from stuns skills.
And on top of parkour agility could also unlock faster dash skill or better sneaking skill
Here are just 3 examples for each basic stat
Any additional stat that would exist would have similar related skills. I'm sure you can think of something for anything.
Note that none of my mentioned skills are attack skills. They would be tied directly to classes, period.
Mhmm… I'd put it down for a yes every class should be able to climb to some extent with armor being a limiting factor ontop of skills.
I'd expect Tanks/Heavy Armor users to struggle with this clambering slowly or needing rope/dropped down for others to climb. Imagin needing a ranger or rogue to clamber up and drop a latter for bulkier classes or helping them up smaller inclines.
You may even build encounters and boss fights around this concept.
Just me personally I want a playstyle of Rangers/Rogues using terrain to their advantage against Melee/Tanks. Where mages need to AoE a cliff or roof top to flush them out. However I cannot think of a way to balance Tanks and Melee fighters in this kind of meta.
How are summoner pets going to interact with this system? Will they no-clip or get stuck on terrain. Will my pets need to fly/hover or flow over terrain like an elemental? This particular class has never been done well. Either its a joke of a pet that does jack all, is overpowered and lets players AoE grind with zero brainpower. Or you just juggle minions that last all of 5-10s and the majority of the damage was the impact of the minion rather than it sticking around. I think only CoH did pet classes well and that game died.
Did they just make my preferred class undesirable? I was already concerned about how summoner would play now I have to contend with the depth needed to create this system.
They were already needing to concern themselves with Multipul layers of changes to a node based on its level and influence values. Ontop of that, Each layer needs to be combed over for any "Massive" changes.
Can they really put that layer of detail into a node that on a particular server may be years before we see said node advance or progress?
Tab vs Action, Node System, Clambering. That is alot to work on ontop of making an MMO.
Effectively Intrepid just opened a can of worms that cannot go back in the box. I want to believe they can pull this off… But if I'm realistic I have more concerns here than I do for star citizen.
Why do eveveryone need to do everything though, how i see things is pvp wise having some people that can parkour in say seiges rougue hunter can infiltrate and cause distractions for your main force to get easy access on the push howeevr since everyone cant do it the group will be weaker since they wont have healers or tanks with them just DPS. so your weaker overall than defenders or should be however ur pulling them or killing them on seige and causing issues for defenders if you get in you can. For pve dungeons could provide groups an extra chest or something if they take a roughe/ranger dps or you can have chests on pillar that need a mage to levetate the chest to you or something too.
You talk about equality of everyone needing to do everything but tbh u need classes to be able to do something other cant aswell so there class feels special in some way. like a rogue cant tank should they be able to tank so its equality there no not realy they shouldnt thats not what makes there class special.
that being said being able to parkour to say a boss is probaly a no go unless it for a specific class quest.
Available to all but buffed by class and debuffed by armor worn.
Depending on how action the combat ends being, however giving that amount of mobility and freedom to ranges and rogues only, will funnel ALOT of players to those classes …just because. I would rather if they have big bonuses , like speed, boosts, more mobility while doing that, and other classes being somewhat generic and slow.
The mage point of view you pointed out is also huge, in a world where you have mages doing crazy stuff, not being able to float to the top of the wall or house sounds strange.
If we do get parkour for only the rogues and rangers I hope they allow those two classes methods to enable others to climb structures, such as rope bow for rangers and ladders for rogues.
I think parkour should be included for all classes but have further enhancements for rouge and ranger.
Edit: To clarify, I would love enhancements like faster climbing, 1 hand throw weapons usable while climbing, grappling hook, etc.
I wouldn't be a fan of parkour. I like the idea of certain archetypes maybe getting movement advantages of some type. Such as a mage having slight levitation or slow falling like you mentioned. A ranger or rogue can jump a little higher or sprint a little faster. Maybe a fighter can slide when he crouches during sprint. You would have to give every archetype an advantage movement trait though.
NOO GOD NO!! NOOOOOOOOOO. All classes should have parkour and each class should have unique parkour abilities imho!