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During the October 2022 Ashes of Creation Livestream, Steven Sharif the Creative Director mentioned that the crafting system might have some sort of mini-game in it. In over two decades of MMORPG gameplay only two games have really stood out for their crafting systems; Eve Online and Final Fantasy 14. FFXIV is without a doubt the more complicated of the two systems, with at this time 24 different buttons on your hotbar for crafting. The problem is, that in FFXIV you can simply create a macro that 100% ensures you HQ each and every craft. Where is the game in that? The other is Eve Online, which isn’t a crafting system but more a Manufacturing and Logistics system, which I believe is the gold standard of production and more MMORPGs should model it.
What do you think? Is simple 1 button push crafting enough? Do you want mini-games? Do mini-games belong in MMORPGs? Or would you prefer a more logistics/manufacturing approach?
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crafting with osu! minigame is the way to go
loved your discussion 🙂
Huge task for Intrepid to make crafting solid over time. I do like farming and crafting alot. I dont like one button process. It should feel like an accomplishment when you have made a nice item. EVE online is a good example but I do want more depth into blueprint research. I would love to see for example in little higher tier items that you have to find specific layers of a blueprint to advance and you have to visit regions of the world. Then also invest in research with mtrl and time. However to make this time investment meaningful then crafting items has to be very valuable in game. That is another matter with discussion best slot in game in crafting vs dungeons. I am all for crafting but I want it integrated with the economy and very important "protected" from macros and such. Nice discussion video.
Question: Should you lose your benefits if your freehold is destroyed and have to start from the beginning or should the progress be saved to the character itself? If the former, then that could give real incentive to participate in a node siege.
Personally I would find a minigame annoying after the 1000th craft so a system where I have to maintain my workshop to produce the best items seems very appealing to me.
I do really enjoy something more than just simply clicking the button and poof there's an item. But I'm also not the type of player to have used a macro in FFXIV's crafting system. I did some of the crafting beast tribe daily quests too and those were tedious as hell, but I felt like I was putting in the work and that felt good. So my personal view is that I'd love a minigame even if it is just time consuming.
I get that that is pretty selfish though. So a few of my suggestions might be things like giving processors the ability to set and control aspects of their environment and have that have an effect on their efficiency or quality. Don't want the smelter get too hot for a particular type of metal, you'd better open some vents. Placing ingredients into a mixture in a specific order and timing could be important for alchemy. I would prefer things like this over something like ffxiv's system or some kind of timing based minigame. You could have books to be found through out the world that share this knowledge, if you have the book in your inventory you can skip the fine tuning process and it will automate the correct procedure for you if you chose? Sorry these are really just half baked examples of things that I think would be fun as opposed to mini games, but I got to spitballing.
I'll be sorely disappointed if it is just a button click and definitely focusing on gathering in that case.
edit: I really do appreciate the manufacturing focus as it takes at least some thought, and would love to have that on top of a more personally engaging experience.
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If they go down the road of mini game , I think they should have the afk option on side with the mini game.
And you put some benefits on the mini game that will over time positively influence the afk products.
Make it two road that end at the same point , and let the player chose what he want when he feels to do so.
This way you never end up with boring side of mini games.
I want to be able to mix and match material, let’s say I am making a mace, and I ask what is this mace going to be used for, is it going to be used to patrol around the node to keep monsters in check? If so it is going to get a lot of use and probably break, so instead of steel I use iron for the head it’s cheaper then steel and does not need to hold a edge and it’s a bit heavier so it does more damage per hit, or is it going to be used in a tournament? In that case it will get used in a round then there will be time to repair it between rounds it will be around for quite some time making replacements not needed and the lighter wight of steel means it is slightly faster to swing so the wielded might get the hit in first
For the Algorithm!!!
Yes, but it should not feel like a mini game at all, it should feel immersive and fun.
I've always considered the act of gathering to be the mini game for crafting. I'm fine with the one button press and done. If they do make a mini game to the crafting act itself I hope it feels meaningful, like the makers mark idea would be. Especially like that idea because of the roll play it would add to the server. I just don't know how they would go about adding a mini game to the actual act of crafting without it feeling tedious.
That being said, investing several hours of flying around nullsec trying to scan down a data/relic site, only to get extremely unlucky on the hacking minigame and get that perfect lvl5 can explode is ….bad. Really really bad.
Crafting systems must first and foremost be engaging in order to be enjoyable. A crafting system can be worthwhile because it provides high-value items, but that does not make the act of crafting them particularly interesting.
There are a couple of ways to make a crafting system engaging. A minigame system fulfils that role but only up to a point. It is very attractive to casual players but becomes mundane for long-term players (macro automation as you pointed out). It also has the drawback of a whole separate game that needs to be designed and developed for the purpose of crafting. A potential solution, at least to the macro problem, is introducing a random element that prevents the solution from always being the same set of button presses. I personally do not think this style matches Ashes of Creation. It is better suited to games where crafting is tertiary and not one of the core systems of the game. By a tertiary system, I mean one that does not need to be interacted with to see meaningful progress in the game. Due to Ashes being built upon the node system, this lends itself a lot better to a crafting system based around manufacturing and logistics, where crafting plays a more active and important role. The example you make in the video.
One thing that I do want to touch more upon is logistics. There are a couple of ways of implementing them. Paying for goods transport (other players), buying/building your own transport but still paying a transport fee (or material fee), or physically transporting the goods yourself using some form of a vehicle. In such a system the time cost is not just the time it takes to craft an item but also the time it takes to transport goods from one node to another.
Why have a transport fee for a transport you own? In particular the material fee. This is because it creates a new market. A material that needs to be consumed every time you wish to transport goods, means that material has to also be gathered, crafted and transported as well. The more interactions a crafting system has like that, the more engaging it becomes. I don't actively follow Ashes development but to my understanding, a node currently levels up on its own after certain conditions are met. This process can be made more active by making crafting mandatory in order to progress and even require upkeep to maintain its current level (material costs can scale with population or be fixed). Buildings that can be built and require upkeep to be paid, in the form of materials. Crafting stations that are only available in specific nodes. Adding multiple layers to logistics and crafting, makes even simple processes create something complex and engaging.
I do want to stress that for there to be a logistical problem, the transport vehicles, whether it be caravans or ships should be one of the most expensive and complex things to make. Otherwise, logistics become trivial. Physically transporting goods doesn't have that problem as it restricts you to only one transport vehicle at a time. In those cases, the possibility of crafting a better vehicle is also an option. The downside to that is that often physically transporting goods is incredibly boring and time-consuming. And should ganking be possible, also very risky.
Those are just ideas. It all depends on to what degree players wish the crafting system to impact the game. Should it be something more akin to BDO, or a more traditional system like the one in WoW, where the crafting system is only there to facilitate consumables and gear for PvE/P?
One last thing I want to touch upon. Having recipes that reduce material costs are quite punishing to new players as it means they will be at an inherent disadvantage from the start potentially cutting them out of the market. This means that new players would need to own enough money to even get started in crafting in order to make a profit. Instead, recipes that consume LESS time but inversely MORE materials are an option. Gives a means of cutting down on time but doesn't affect profit margins for the new guy.
Naturally, there are a dozen ways a crafting system can be done, and this is just one option. Let me know if you'd like me to clarify anything or go more in-depth on the things I mentioned.
It's been a long time but i think the old eq2 crafting didn't bother me too much. Failure and bonuses for successfully passing a minigame is nice but I do like they made it optional. I think it was a fairly good risk vs reward system. But with the material quality system such a crafting system would suck if it fails with the top mats in the game. Quality should therefore be enough of a minigame for AoC
Im more of a fan of immersive crafting processes, I don't mind filling buckets with water, or putting wood into the oven to bake bread because I like to immerse myself into the game and doing those trivial things adds to the immersion .That said Im aware most people would find it boring so I don't have many hopes of seeing it implemented in AoC, Im also not very fond of the "microwave style processing" of just put the ingredients, wait X time and get the result, simply because is not really engaging, and encourages putting everything to cook and leave to do other stuff until is ready so is not really very engaging, but it could work if the the engaging part is outside the processing perse, like for example, instead of following a fixed recipe, you could tweak the amounts of each ingredients to tweak the stats of the final result…like if you put 100% iron you get a regular sword, but if you put 70% iron and 30% blood diamonds you get a sword with less base damage, but with bleeding chance, and if you put 70% iron , 20% blood diamonds and 10% unicorn horn you get less chance to bleed but the bleed damage would be stronger. and so on… there wont be a "best way to craft the sword" since a blood sword would be less effective vs enemies who are inmune to bleeding like golems and skeletons, but maybe it would be better against minotaurs and goblins…having ways to add mods to the weapons sacrificing stats would allow crafters to express themselves with their own style, some would be conservative and preserve the natural stats of the weapon, others would bet on making powerful elemental swords and others could focus on powerful procs like poison or critical chance…all with the same blueprint.
Simplest answer is no, minigames do not belong in complex mmo crafting systems.
That being said there are numerous reasons why you may include it but only 2 are really relevant. Is a failure rate important for the broader health of your economy, and Will another layer of engagement in crafting make crafting less accessible or less enjoyable for the players pursuing it as the core of their in game experience.
As someone that is older, has some vision issues and slower reflexes, crafting and gathering will be at the core of my experience in Ashes so minigames that rely on reflexes will most certainly impact my game experience. I would prefer to see a system that benefits people that grind crafting and gathering for the vast bulk of their in game time rather than one that a person can just jump into, be great at the minigame and produce constant high end items with a few clicks. That system benefits high reflex players allowing those people to build crafting to high levels and create high end items easily without really needing to grind at all. Basically, minigames benefit Alt toon crafters more than players that main crafting.
Set failure rates that improve with crafting experience may be frustrating at times but provide far more control over the availability of items in the market place. Modern bots and Macros mean that minigames WILL get hacked and the volume of high end items will increase in the market rather than maintain a necessary exclusiveness. The correct resource balance in combination with high grind requirement will always be the most effective way to manage the volume of items in the market rather than what amounts to a gimmick being a limiting factor.
I absolutely loved the blueprint system in EveOnline.
with FF14 u can only realy macro HQ the base mateirals (aka wool into cloth) or lower level gear atleast when i played, equal quality gear or somewhat close to your gear was hard to garantee 100% if not impossible to get it every time it depends in the event pop up and if you hit the right skill on them
Minigames are beautiful, amazing, interesting and fun while it's a novelty. After two months they turn into a chore, most people find it annoying and wish it didn't exist, especially if you have to craft hundreds or thousands of items to master a Crafting profession. In my opinion they should invest time in designing the best Artisan (Gathering, Processing and Crafting) system possible and forget about minigames.
Regarding your ideas and EVE's system, they're a good inspiration but Intrepid should be careful not to make the Artisan system too complex generally speaking, as I believe that can turn into a negative aspect. I would like Ashe's Artisan system to have the following features:
– predictable: as little RNG as possible most of the time;
– easily understood: straightforward yet rich, no unnecessary and excessive complexity;
– deep and interdependent: make everything matter, some resources more than others, but everything can be useful;
– controlled risk (RNG): let people take optional risks in every Artisan profession, RNG can be an okay mechanic in an MMORPG if done right;
– meaningful risk (RNG): don't add RNG to make something "harder", do it to make the game better;
– user friendly/intuitive/practical/convenient: it's hard to find games where sometimes all you wanna do is log in to gather/process/craft, but if Intrepid is able to make every Artisan profession interesting, rewarding and fun, it could become the GOAT in this department surpassing nostalgic games such as SWG, RuneScape, EVE, EQ2, etc.
Lastly, I think they shouldn't add mini-games to any Artisan profession, maybe except fishing. However, if they do, it must be optional regardless of what it means in the gathering/processing/crafting.
I wish they would copy SWG crafting system, but i know that will never happen 😥 damn i miss that crafting system
Seems like quite a lot of time and effort for Intrepid to put into the crafting system. Sounds great, but I’m afraid it would be scope creep for them to add that now. That being said, I absolutely hate the one button crafting system because of how uninvolved it is, and while I tend to be partial towards mini games, I only have lower-level experience with them and understand the criticisms.
I hope they make your system, but I hope it doesn’t cause months-year more of waiting as a result.
I do also like the crafting in Mortal Online (for the resulting aspect), but what you propose is something (to an extent) I do remember from Black Desert, and I liked it 👍
As long as it wasn’t like new world where you could create 1000 items instantly and it was just a rinse and repeat. It is unlikely I’ll be a crafter main but would like to see some interactive games. I do like the idea of maybe having something a bit more interactive to stamp the item you make to “advertise” your wears.
It's complicated and big subject since for some crafting is a chore for others it's a game within the game and for some it's really the only thing they will be willingly doing .
I like the process you explained but I have reservations concerning the reductions in time (which I think is very good since it's our most pressions resource) and the reduction of materials needed. I am afraid that the second will create a disparity between gatherers and crafters even more. When we speak about the risk of it we already have a heavier balance on the gathering side you can get contested for the material, you may be killed, upon death you drop part of what you gathered, to transport your gathered stuff you expose once more your lively hood to atk (caravan, mule, personal movement), while the crafter side seems far less risky. What concerns me is the balance involved between the branches (I understand the whole wheat -flour-baker concept) concerning the time consumption and the risk, gatherers are high risk low time, processing is medium and craft low risk higher time. When we start tweaking those 2 components we have to do it for everyone. And while I personally hate minigames, I think that if your part of the role involves the least risk it sure as hell should be payed in time/money invested and maybe the minigames should be the way of shaving off some of the time, it's still skipable for those who can't be bothered to do it, doesn't affect the final product (tho I love the idea of name engraving) and gives those who actually do only that, a way of going faster at it if they choose to do so.
EVE Online has one of the best crafting systems in all MMOs. Minigames are awful – interesting the first ten times, then it just becomes a chore. EQ2's system comes to mind…