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This is a follow up to the video I did about Action and Tab combat and blending them, specifically the idea of how to give action fans active blocking without breaking the waterfall component of blocking that tab players are looking for. This is a work in progress with some different ideas for how you can blend active blocking with passive blocking without making shield users overpowered. I would love to hear what other people have to say about this via a few questions:
Do you think that active blocking should be in Ashes?
Do you think that active blocking should exclude passive blocking?
Do you think active blocking and passive blocking can exist in the same game?
The forum thread that kicked off this discussion is here:
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Woo first
I think that shields should be the only way to active block 100% of a damage type and allow for other weapons to have lower values, while not 100% Its still an active way for players to go about negating their damage. 50% for 2 handers, 25% for daggers/Staffs, something like that. Someone not really good at dodging mechanics could in theory survive with more HP if they had a way to negate some of the damage while still being punished for standing in a bosses cleave. I can see the two systems working rather well together for passive and active blocking.
I love the idea of the shield HP. though could go with instead of a block stance CD/HP bar, have a stamina like bar that decreases as you use the block stance giving players a way to buff that playstyle if they like, though have it limited based on how you build a character.
Active blocking should also have a increased impact on item durability since if you abuse it eventually an item should need repairs/breaks more often, tanks have always had a higher repair cost and I dont see that changing here.
Also with the effective passive block it still does not stop players from taking advantage of the active block. I can see many players having shields for certain situations and since you can swap weapons on the fly. I won't be surprised to see a cleric go from staff to mace&Shield if they get dived to survive long enough for a peal.
Interesting ideas.
I do not want them to have both types of blocking as blocking. If passive blocking is needed, call it armour deflect or something else. Having two very different types of damage mitigation under one name will be bad more new players learning the game.
If they for some stupid reason decide on having rolldodging that system u explained could easily be expanded into a system that would support more like a stamina system aswell.
But I hope we dont get rolldodging since we seem to get mobility abilities anyway.
On paper this sounds really, really cool. Im kinda undecided on it though, since I'm not sure whether this just adds combat depths (which would be perfect) or just make everything way too complicated (which would be bad). I guess active block can be very useful in fights against NPCs where you know where the damage comes from and when it will hit.
Would this require some sophisticated formation discipline in PvP to be even somewhat useful?
This proposed shield system would basically be overwatchs reinhardt shield. Seperate hit pool that slowly refills. I'm definately not a fan of a cooldown on activation, though I'd be okay with a short one if i allow my shield health to completely shatter, maybe even with a short stun or stagger.
Also, weapons should be tilted with how much damage they do. Like you said axes getting a bonus, but light weapons like daggers should have an opposite interaction, incentivizing those knifey stab players to seek the flanks or rear.
Would feel SUPER clunky setting off a CD every time you let your shield down. I'd say let the player use the shield at will until the shield health reaches zero, THEN apply the cooldown with a higher CD depending on severity of the overkill. Doing this makes shield health much more important to monitor, especially for tanks.
A solid idea, however, its too much for an MMORPG. I think Ashes has enough on its plate to add thirty rules on how a shield works. (k.i.s.s.)
It's also going to result in tanks stacking evade and just taping shield block so they don't hit a CD on the big hits and at that point, a rogue would make a better tank. A 25% rng passive block isn't with it when you can just stack more evasion. Adding durability to a block stance is a good idea, but the passive (Tank with shield) block should be at least 50% from the front and zero from the back. With a cap around 60 – 65% Or what about adding block to gear increases the block stance durably? I just think the passive being that low, no one will bother with it.
Evasion tanks aren't real tanks, there are rogues with taunts. Not that a tank shouldn't have evasion, just that it shouldn't be their primary defense stat.
I definitely like the idea of the shield hp better than the flat block cooldown. I think it opens more options for dealing with different situations. Especially if you only make there be a cooldown if your shield gets broken and you have to wait for it to recharge some or have some sort of minimum block hp without a cooldown but you get punished by a stagger or other cc whenever your shield breaks.
You could then have situations where if for example you have a tank blocking some sort of beam attack that a more skilled player might stop blocking right before their shield breaks to not get staggered knowing that they're worse off getting staggered than blocking that last 50 damage for example. Then they can go into some other ability for mitigation or maybe they know they can survive the rest of the damage normally so they start repositioning. A less skilled tank might not pay attention and get staggered when their shield breaks and either take bonus damage for being stunned or not be able to reposition to dodge the next attack or something like that.
I think that kind of system opens the door for a higher skill ceiling and more mix up potential than just a flat cooldown whenever you block. You could also then include things like maybe axes or another anti-shield weapon reduce the shield hp recharge rate as a different way to counter shields or even differentiate the anti-shield weapons. Maybe axes and something like a hammer or war-pick are the anti-shield weapons and they both do bonus damage to shields but axes do a higher percentage of bonus damage but war-picks halve the recharge rate. Something along those lines.
if you block with a weapon and loses all its hp, it should received a Sundered status and lower your damage.
How i would do it
parry (non shield block) – parry attack reduces dmg by 50% or so once dmg is parried is disabled for 5 seconds (Some CD reduction could be available in some class trees) this is more blocking or reducing a heavy hitting attack so you gotta time parrying heavy hitting attacks to realy benefit from it
Block
Light shield – Works same way as parry however blocks 100% of the dmg for 1 second from when first hit is blocked 3 second CD
Medium Shield – blocked 100% of the dmg for 3 seconds before going on CD for 5 seconds
Heavy shield – blocks 100% of the dmg for x amount of dmg before breaking similiar to your one (aka reinhard shield kinda mechanic) 10 second cooldown when it hits 0 this give more control and more duability to the big tanky shields
of course this is all for frontal dmg back dmg would be the same as not blocking
I assume the hit box of the weapon isn't a single point but instead a volume. I could see it as a ray that traverses over time. Either way, if the player rotates couldn't that 180° plane cover a larger area. Say the swing takes 250ms and I can rotate my character 360° in 1 second. I could add 90° to that 180° volume that the blocking plane covers to be closer to 270°.
My numbers could be off far enough that this could not be a concern but I don't know how to get better numbers, just spitballing.
Anything that the developers would need to account for in this scenario? While blocking should rotation agency be reduced?
I believe the blocking in BDO should be used for ashes. Its active blocking using a specifc button. When using block, you have a block stamina pool which will be a small popup next to your character when actively blocking. Each weapon will have specific pool that allow you to block different amounts of dmg. Sword n shield may be able to block 10 hits before running out of stamina while daggers may be only able to block 3. If you release the block while you still have some block stamina pool left, after a three second delay, your pool will begin to recharge back to 100%. If your block stamina pool reaches 0 aka your block is broken, your block will drop so you cant block at all and your stamina pool will have the three second charge delay but will charge a bit slower. So lets say the charge of your shield pool from 5-100% would take about three seconds after the initial three second delay. The recharge of your block after your block stamina pool hitting 0 would be 9 seconds after the initial 3 second delay. I believe this would prevent perma blocking targets as you will only be able to block for a few seconds at a time before having to release your block or basically having a large 12 sec debuff of not being able to block. BDO also gave you 360 block based on your class. Tankier classes usually got it which i dont have a problem with. I believe the tank class or the sword and shield weapon type in ashes should have it only as a passive to spec into. You may spec into 360 block but you may miss out on putting points into a passive that increases your block pool. The other classes and weapon types should have a conal block so you must continue to reposition or risk getting back attacks.
I think the best way to balance and have a blend of active and tab blocking, with still keeping the ability to chatacter build, would to take the stats from tab and bring them over to active.
What that means is when you active block its the same stats as your tab targeting. Same primary stats, same block chances, damage mitigation, Parry chance, dodge chance, crit damage reduction, etc.
The benefit to active blocking is directional damage.
So if you choose to actively block and use skills in action combat that are for tanking, they're just better.
The issues I have with this though, and what I have with alot of the "action" combat, is that these base core functions of the game that have bonuses for action combat may create metas.
What I mean is, if active blocking is much superior in directional damage, then you probably don't want to be running around and picking up adds. So, active blocking tanks might be the meta for main tanking and tab target tanks for off tanks.
Just like active combat, Melee has aoe damage and ranged is single target.
That pushes Melee to PvE content for AoE and ranged to Pvp content.
Theyre just naturally going to do better with those core functions.
You can balance this though by letting melee do full damage to one target and then damage reduction based off of number of enemies in their attack.
Adding active blocking into this now adds a whole different monster that now needs to be completely balanced.
Adding a blocking bar, shield health, cooldown, etc. I believe would add too much to the equation, they wouldn't be able to balance it and would create too much of a space for metas.
How will all of this play into PvP?
This is where I just dont like active blocking in PvP.
You cannot attack while actively blocking and whether you have bars, shield health, directional damage bonuses. Damage will always outweigh sheilds, tanking and damage mitigation.
There's been a few instances where I've seen tanking and Survivability outweigh or be equal to damage.
So then, it creates another meta. Where tab targeting blocking would be better in pvp bevause you can still attack and use skills while having those stats for tanks.
Down to its core from what we've seen, I believe active blocking does not work in PvP because you can spam your auto attack.
There's no point with bars, cooldowns , shield health or directional damage bonuses, etc.
Damage will eventually outweigh active blocking (and maybe even Survivability/Tanks). It usually does from what I've seen, except for a few exceptions that either got completely taken away after an expansion or nerfed to the ground shortly after.
Something else to remember with all of this is you don't need a shield to tank, it just makes it easier. Also, active blocking with weapons, in the big picture this might be easier to balance but in the here and now, it doesn't make sense.
Intrepid has alot of balancing to do and again, I'm not saying it won't work, but it might and probably will create metas and scenarios where players using active blocking will be better than tab or vise versa. Again, that's if Intrepid can balance any of its core functions with one another.
There's alot to be worried about, they probably shouldn't have shown active blocking without more information regarding it and how it's going to work.
I could be completely wrong about all of this because they have some sort of system in place that's going to make all of this fair and equal.
Guess we will see.
I like the idea of the shield breaking, forcing you to use other spells or attacks besides right clicking.
Very good ideas here. As long as penalties are in place it could be a rewarding gameplay experience to utilized well-timed blocks. I use Smite as a point of reference for combat that feels fair enough for action skills and tab skills. I would like to see being a shield hero as viable even if adjusting positioning is needed against heavy axes etc.
As a mechanic to keep people from shield blocking constantly you can just make it so you can't shield block aoe's and or only partially negate them and or apply the damage to their weakest point if it's in range of the AOE like say from behind where it does double damage
This game will fail just like anthem
There should be an option in the settings/preferences where we can trade active blocking for more passive blocking (for us lazy gamers) … or a gameplay mechanic that converts active blocking into passive blocking, with possible RNG penalties for balance.
passive blocking sounds dumb as fuck
Good video, excellent feedback! as a main tank myself I think you nailed it with this video.
I think another option to add would be reduce movement speed while blocking including turn speed by 90% or even rooting you in place.