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I’ve noticed quite the debate and concern among the Ashes Of Creation Community as of late and this concern has become more popular since the recent PvP showcase for MMO Ashes Of Creation
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Bad intel and hooliganism is a massive risk to someones reputation. Are you going to PvP with people who cannot get the job done? Nope. Are you going to kos people who are constantly raiding caravans? Yep.
Game honestly looks really fun. I also agree with the spawn locations and how that can have endless attacks on ur caravan . Is there death cooldowns?
I wish there were boobs in AOC tbh…
(For reference) Death penalties imo should apply in caravan PvP to deter constantly throwing bodies at the caravan. Steven has said death penalties mostly don’t apply to objectives, but also has stated gear degradation occurs.
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I think the point people are making about attackers not having enough risk is that, because there's not a direct system punishing players for failing to attack caravans, theres more incentives for people to attack caravans rather than weighing the odds. Exp debt isn't a direct system for caravan attackers. It's a global system and applies in all circumstances, and to both parties. In math, when it's applied to both sides, you just cancel it out, which is kinda what goes on in peoples minds when considering the pros and cons.
"obsessively consuming Ashes of Creation content" – <raises hand>
I think the whole system is fine as is… there's risk to both attackers and defenders. I will agree on the respawn location (maybe even a timer). It needs to be within reason… i like the idea of a serverwide rep built by the community. Who knows…. maybe your group of 30 people who absolutely slaughtered a caravan one time… will get recruited and paid handsomely to defend one 😊.
But normal death penalties won't apply to pvp sanctioned events no? "Death penalties (mostly) do not apply to objective-based events (such as caravans, guild wars, and node sieges)."
Also I don't think reputation is really going to matter for the most part. Its going to be 10k population servers, my little 40 man guild that keeps getting their caravan attacked by another small guild is going to somehow petition the rest of the players that these other guys are "bad"? Maybe after a period of time but in general I don't think its that big of a negative in the long run, especially if you are raiding caravans far away from your usual play area.
I swear people will complain about everything.
Plus when the Attackers DO get the loot, they have to become the defenders of the loot in turn???? So what do they mean there is no risk or penalty for the attackers. It just gets uno reversed all the way to the location they are trying to get to.
The only thing I would think needs to be done is:
1. CD timers for deaths ofc so you can't bum rush.
2. Specific spawn locations in the worlds…. like Archeage had the nui statues.
3. If a vehicle/Caravan/Ship is broken, there needs to be a timers on it being fixed/repaired like lets say 5 minutes before it can be respawned again.
Those are really the only things that would need to be looked at.
On the note of the whole avoid these people at all cost lists. Archeage fishers were fuking ADAMANT on excluding ANYONE who ganks. So you wanted in the raid? There was a list to check before they let you in. That's a huge punishment in itself.
Thanks!
3:20 well make a bandits guild I suppose
Juste an other escuse for people to zerg, not a fan.
1:40 That's just ridiculous. Attackers will be known as ''the ones that raided us'' in the eyes of defender, which in future will be vary of the said attackers. Those defenders will remember who raided their caravan and every citizen (attackers) will be kill-on-sight even at the cost of corruption.
Here is another layer to all this. Word gets around. Guilds will talk amongst each other and form alliances against the aggressor, which will probably think twice before mindlessly raiding a caravan again.
People are seriously underestimating the power of reputation.
There's been a lot of takes on this topic. I need to see it in a non staged manner at this point.
Don't really see this as an issue at all since this will enrage players and perpetuate war. BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!
Joking aside, If it really bothers someone, maybe they should increase respawn time for the attackers.
Risk verse reward has to be right but there's a lot of unanswered questions before I can decide. Like for one, where can attackers take goods to turn in? Is it only the black market? Is it only black markets at nodes they are a citizen of? I assume at the black market you might get 1/2 or less the price as well. I also think the node you are delivering goods to will be 'on your side' and members of that community will come to defend and will also attack 'non-citizens' on trade routes, so hanging out in 'enemy territory' has a risk to it. Plus others. The key point I am making is that I am unsure how nodes affect the risk-reward of trade.
What's the point of secrecy when moving a caravan? You KNOW some random player will see it and then blab their mouth in general chat, and then it will be attacked by a bunch of people not even in a group, who then will stuff their pockets with whatever drops and leave.
Why do you assume it will be like in the showcase? 18 years of MMORPG play taught me that people are baboons.
IMO There is evident inequality within risk of both sides. If we cannot agree even on that simple really clear think, then why even debate 🙂
———-
So what we have there?
Attackers: Time of caravan run, XP Debt, Caravan
Defenders: Time of caravan run, XP Debt, Caravan, All Resources
If you leave duplicates, what left there? Resources given by defenders. What investing Attackers? Nothing. Period.
Saying that attackers then needs to secure their own caravan run sounds like a joke. This is an defenders goods, attackers just stole it, if they loose in defending they loose still only a time. It will be diferent scenario if resources of caravans are some kind of NPC goods a your only task is to deliver it from A to B and its not your resources. But their are not as we know 🙂
And don't get me wrong, I love PvP and be on part of attacking side will be probably most exiting thing, but it just not seems like a fair game. There is just no reason to waste time with collecting resources and then run your own caravans. Just raid others. Casuals pays for it. 🙂
Steven just repeats the same words like a old businessman. AA players knows that this is mostly straight copy from ArcheAge but it has the same flaws, the reason why players do it mostly is just because it has the best gold/hr ratio not because there is a need of moving resources around the world or its paid with better price by some real demand.
Sad, IMHO the whole potential of being something really cool and unique with logistic & economic aspect is gone.
A problem with punishing attacks is that if the punishment is severe enough to actually impact players, they will only attack when they have enough numbers to guarantee an easy win. If you have even numbers as an attacker, it just won't be that worth it to attack. You may get some resources but you can just wait until a more vulnerable caravan comes through or until you have numbers advantage. This discourages level fighting and means either caravans will most likely end up just going through untouched or zerged down by massive armies. It will end up just being a matter of how well you can organize massive groups of players, not how good of a player you or your group are.
As far as gamers policing behavior through discords and black lists…. don't be naive. I believe we both played NW. There is no way to punish the strongest groups on a server. You can blacklist the biggest, sweatiest, most toxic guilds and people in the game and that only hurts you because they will have disproportionate power on the server. It happens in every game. You cannot rely on outside policing by players to remedy bad game design.
The fact that there incentive to take boxes unopened to a node after a successful attack makes the attackers risk come after their attack bc it’s their turn to defend
i’m sure we will find a balancing point in A2
I think one of the big things overlooked in this discussion is caravan travel will be one of the ways to make more profit in verra, and if you want to progress your character to sustain it in any play loop you prefer, caravan travel can be efficient for boosting gold. This means that most people will be participating in the caravan system from a transporting position.
Put yourself in this situation: you get attacked by a guild while on a caravan. Win or lose…if you see them doing their own caravan run are you just going to leave them be or try to fight back? That's the risk the attackers have, putting a target on their back for anything they try to accomplish in the game.
I don't really have a problem with the caravan system.
There's something that, as I see it, nobody is taking into account: time and expectations.
Unless you have a spy, there's no way to know when a caravan is departing and what valuables it has.
Are you telling me that I'll be wasting time, hours or days waiting for a caravan to pass who knows where, just to attack it?
I beg your pardon but it doesn't make sense at all.
This is a huge risk: wasted time for an empty or not valuable caravan or impossible to attack because it's stronger than my team.
The caravan system is fine as it is.
The risk of dying is also there for the defenders, so again just based on risk vs reward is 1000% better to attack than defend, which at the end could lead to no one except big guilds to run caravans, same than in real life if you don't penalize robbery most people are going to do it cuz is easier that work hard, in AoC you want to encourage it to have some fun and having the mechanics working but the risk should be al most the same for both in order to be balanced, if the risk is way bigger for attackers they wont attack if the risk is way bigger for the defender, they wont transport caravans, so a close 50/50 is the way to have a smooth system
To me we can look at Throne and Liberty in Korea currently. They are rapid fire removing the open world forced PvP because it just doesn't work and gets abused. I don't know how Ashes thinks its going to solve the root issue with player behavior. What happens the first time a caravan is basically sabotaged due to real life money changing hands? How do you know you aren't getting backstabbed due to hacked acounts or hacked discord servers; how does Ashes think they are going to police any of this to create an enjoyable experience?
I want this to work out but 20+ years in these games tells me it won't.
I feel like the risk is realistic and aligns with the vision for the game (risk v reward)
I am in the camp that this sort of thing will kill the game eventually. Top tier players will own the game and gate the leaders. The leaders quit and the game pop drops causing even the elites to quit.
Caravans will only be completed by top tier players while the rest will get zerged down. You and 4 friends can't beat 20 players who have no reason not to Zerg you down.
I'm very wait and see on this.
How much reward is there for the attackers without taking on the additional risks of starting a caravan themselves?
Are you likely to attack a caravan near to you or is it more likely a long distance target?
How often will you face retaliation from the original defenders and the additional people they inform?
How large will defender groups normally be compared to attacker groups?
How often can you get a caravan completed, to turn quick profit, without seeing an attacker?
With all the time, money, distance and politics involved. I need to see it play out.
I'm not super well-versed into the caravan system as I haven't followed all of AOC, but I think the concept of attackers not getting much pushback for attacking caravans can be a good concept to help with the economy.
Over time economies can become flooded with gold but if you have people who are griefing income caravans, that can help to put a roadblock in economy being flooded with gold and inflation
I dont know much on this Death Penalty (DP) but if it is for 24 hours like 15% of all stats and abilities then I have no issue with it. As for a Black List, sorry there are so many ways around that it is not funny, so you dont want to sell me anything, NP I will have Fred buy it and give it to me. Dont get me wrong I dont want this to be a Daddy Day Care game, but I also dont want it to turn into a Hobo Killer either. If it was that you died in the game you could not play for another 24 hours then yeah that would be some stuff right there or you had a -15%DP for 24 hours compounded by 15% each time you died max of -60% that would stop people from doing things that you would think where dumb as the risk / reward would be there. And you could also make it that they could get 2% taken off the DP by doing a town quest and turning it in or buying a special potion that could remove 2% at a time. This would also keep players inline somewhat due to if a guild has had enough of your shite they can just come at you and you would run around the whole day with a -60% DP, if that does not change how you treat others then nothing will.
Opinion — 1) Risk vs Reward – No risk will invite the spineless to attack every caravan they can for the currency. Everything to gain and nothing to lose just to even try. If successful to often, could lessen ones desire to even create caravans if the expectation is to be attacked and all efforts become a loss…… 2) Would prefer a risk applied from the very start and have it removed at a later time if determined not needed nor desired. Rather than to have it applied later as a control measure or punishment !! Just my 2 cents.
Stop, I like you but follow. The loss of the attacker has to be equal in the eyes of the crafter. If it takes me 15 hours of real life work and you can steel those hours from me then your penalty must be equal if your play washes out. This in UO development lead to total lootable corpse upon death you respawn naked. Another title that did this similar thing was Archeage and so many simply stopped playing. PENANCE is addressing it in this way as supply lines in our strategic MMORPG will have direct impact into server progression. However we are not leaving it to the player because you will be bound by realm pvp rules and can only help your allies and attack enemies. Seems nobody learned but me from the never ending long line of drama destroyed games like Dark Fall Unholy Wars. A hard faction or Realm system to fix people in a path of friend and foe. You may still chose not to aid them but you then give up the rewards for doing so. Well organized groups and guilds will probably love the system but gaming is so solo fractured you will have people asking what's in it for me to help? I just believe it will lead to bad out comes and player choices. We want our players to at least feel they are a part of a nation over all they are charting their story through. Reminded their story is important but so if the kingdom they server.
Xillan used that same clip in his video to point out that when asked about attacker risk, steven dodges the question and only talks about defender risk, haha.
Yes, I agree the risk should lie with the one running the caravan. I don't really have an issue with it, but I think I would just like it more if the attackers also had to drive their caravan there instead of summoning it. The risk of having your own (empty) caravan destroyed even before it gets to the crates should exist.